PM NOMIONATIONS: An Open Call for an OK Leader

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claude
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Re: PM NOMIONATIONS: An Open Call for an OK Leader

#11 Post by claude »

darkfate wrote:
Bibian wrote:if anyone is going to lead it has to be someone who knows their way around the OK code and someone who obviously can code... i personally dont intend to teach someone to code or how OK's code is setup.
But do we really need a "leader"? even when vcl was still "leading" people did what they thought was good. Hardly anything was run by him.

Also why on earth is this open to the public? The developers should choose someone if we have to, not the users... you all know that 95% of our users have the IQ of a mentally retarded muppet (if you feel insulted, then yes... i mean you).

And no, im not nominating myself... i have no desire to lead OK at all.
I agree with that. The average OpenKore user will probably just choose the one who helped him with some stupid support question in the past.. does answering a support question qualify someone to be a project leader? I don't think so.
Besides, devs who code and did a lot for OpenKore in the past (like kLabMouse) but didn't spend that much time in the support section would hardly get votes, which is totally wrong. It's also important for the project leader to be able to work/collaborate with the rest of the team.. and who could possibly answer this questions best? Right.. the team itself..
yeah , who are allow the vote at first place . 95% of our member are inactive and they are extremely lazy and never use brain to think . Those moderator or senior member or ETC that having alot of post normally get voted especially Sli, Cozzie, Ezza . As far as i know , the number of user online always 1-10 only . But our bot user is like 1000X of the amount online in our forum .

we actually need people that can leading and contribute rather than helping noob around , because we already provide manual . Those lazy people just don't know how to read , they seen like to be smart asking this and that but they will forever never ask dictionary and guide about what they really want .
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Re: PM NOMIONATIONS: An Open Call for an OK Leader

#12 Post by kLabMouse »

claude wrote:
darkfate wrote:
Bibian wrote:if anyone is going to lead it has to be someone who knows their way around the OK code and someone who obviously can code... i personally dont intend to teach someone to code or how OK's code is setup.
But do we really need a "leader"? even when vcl was still "leading" people did what they thought was good. Hardly anything was run by him.

Also why on earth is this open to the public? The developers should choose someone if we have to, not the users... you all know that 95% of our users have the IQ of a mentally retarded muppet (if you feel insulted, then yes... i mean you).

And no, im not nominating myself... i have no desire to lead OK at all.
I agree with that. The average OpenKore user will probably just choose the one who helped him with some stupid support question in the past.. does answering a support question qualify someone to be a project leader? I don't think so.
Besides, devs who code and did a lot for OpenKore in the past (like kLabMouse) but didn't spend that much time in the support section would hardly get votes, which is totally wrong. It's also important for the project leader to be able to work/collaborate with the rest of the team.. and who could possibly answer this questions best? Right.. the team itself..
yeah , who are allow the vote at first place . 95% of our member are inactive and they are extremely lazy and never use brain to think . Those moderator or senior member or ETC that having alot of post normally get voted especially Sli, Cozzie, Ezza . As far as i know , the number of user online always 1-10 only . But our bot user is like 1000X of the amount online in our forum .

we actually need people that can leading and contribute rather than helping noob around , because we already provide manual . Those lazy people just don't know how to read , they seen like to be smart asking this and that but they will forever never ask dictionary and guide about what they really want .

Well, If thing will go like this in Future, I'll just bring Here whole Russian Community (About 10k votes).
But, Are we cheaters??? I think Not.
So Only Active Members of our own team can Vote, non else.

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Re: PM NOMIONATIONS: An Open Call for an OK Leader

#13 Post by Darki »

I don't see fair neither if the leader is someone who NEVER answers questions and NEVER gives support to somebody, even if he/she coded half of the OpenKore program. This person is not meant the most helpful person in the forum, nor the best programmer, just need to be someone who is able to carry the project well enough to make the developers to work in the correct direction and manage the forum support well enough.

If you're able to code OpenKore by yourself in an afternoon while eating a pizza, but you're unable to answer a damn question in the forums, you don't deserve the leadership of the project, and viceversa. The "good leader" just need to be someone that will make you (the wonderful programmeer) to work in the correct thing, and can choose a group of forum mods that know well how to deal with n00bs and distinguish selfish ones that only want spoonfeed, from the ones with potential and who deserve the advice so they can improve.

And I know many people of the forum comes here to baww and for haelp meplz1!, but without the proper motivation and advice most of that people will remain in that state. For example me, I didn't have any fucking idea of Perl a month ago and thanks to the help I was given in some macros I was writting now I feel I can deal to any code, and at least understand it even if I'm not able to write it. If you want the community to magically turn into a crowd of perl-gurus, at least you could motivate them a little. Saying STFU n00b doesn't help too much. Not everybody are Informatics students who can learn to code OK in 3 weeks.
claude wrote:we actually need people that can leading and contribute rather than helping noob around , because we already provide manual . Those lazy people just don't know how to read , they seen like to be smart asking this and that but they will forever never ask dictionary and guide about what they really want .
The idea is that the leader carries the project WITH the rest of the community. Are the rest of developers gonna be brain-sucked so they won't be able to work anymore? As I said the leader doesn't need to be Larry Wall, just someone who tells him what to do and what are the problems. For that, you need to understand what are the problems, and be able to solve them well enough if neccesary, but you're not meant to be the ONLY one working here, isn't it? Too know the problems, you should be in some knowledge of how the comunnity goes, because yes, they're n00bs, but if 45 n00bs say Kore doesn't do something, that MIGHT be a problem.

And the manuals are not enough in many cases. when I started writting macros and botting, if you posted me a huge eval macro and expect me to understand it you'd be, frankly, a little silly/ingenuous. If you put a little effort and for example tell me that line of 1354565 characters can be turned into a well-syntaxed code so I can understand it, you will resume many days of my effort, and all you have to do is to hit "enter" some times and lose 5 minutes of your life. If everything could be learned by reading manuals, school/university wouldn't have a purpose in this world.

And most important, you "experts" often baww about the community being a bunch of n00bs so new "fresh meat" don't come to help with the work, but you're all the time rude with the n00bs (even if in most of the cases they deserve it), that doesn't make people to feel too concerned with the project. If I'm going to work with someone who trashed half of m posts and called me stupid n00b even when I wasn't honestly able to understand something and needed help, you can at least understand if I don't feel like doing it.
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Re: PM NOMIONATIONS: An Open Call for an OK Leader

#14 Post by kLabMouse »

Darki wrote:I don't see fair neither if the leader is someone who NEVER answers questions and NEVER gives support to somebody, even if he/she coded half of the OpenKore program. This person is not meant the most helpful person in the forum, nor the best programmer, just need to be someone who is able to carry the project well enough to make the developers to work in the correct direction and manage the forum support well enough.
I disagree with you.
You see, I can't read thous Stupid n00b post's like "Help ME Please" etc. Never answering them, that is our Mod's job.
Also, there is people, that write on some strange language to me, I only know English a bit.
Also, there is Documentation Writer, that write all thous Manuals and other constant pages for users.

The only 2 thing I read is: Features/Suggestions and Development corner.

And also, came to scene only if it's urgent on OpenKore support.

I suggest you, to read all thous topic's about been'g a Dev leader, first, before you make any stupid decisions.

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Re: PM NOMIONATIONS: An Open Call for an OK Leader

#15 Post by Darki »

Well, sorry if I said something stupid for you but:

- If you want a votation for developers, I'll vote the person who knows best how to code the program. I don't need you to answer questions, just to code. If you wanna help the community because you're such a nice person, and becuase you're also part of the community (also, you'd need the forums to talk with other developers about the job to do), then well, ok, but for the rest of the community you're just a member. You could be (and are) part of this team, since of your behaviour, as you just said.

- If you want a votation for a forum moderator, I'd vote the person who knows best how to deal with a community. I don't need you to code for the program, just to mod the forums, control the spam and answer wisely posts that need to be answered. If you wanna code by yoursef, because you have some knowledge of it and you like it (also, because to being a mod needs you to have some knowledge in the matter), well then, ok. But if you're not willing to explain carefully someone that has a true need for an explanation or support, and you're going to instult anyone that is not able to understand a perl eval function (for example), you don't deserve the right of moding a forum.

- If you want a votation for a documantation writter, it must be someone who has a vast knowledge of language and knows how to write the manuals in a concise, accurate and understandable way. You can also help in the forums, or can also coding (to understand what you're writting you should know about the matter), but your job is to write, and for the rest of the community you're just a member. And you should understand that your guides and manuals might be perfect, but nobody can learn ONLY reading them. Sometimes it's needed an explanation, and that's the job of the mods, with te possible help of the developers.

- If you wanna be the LEADER of the project, the person what will COORDINATE the group of developers and tell them what to do, to decide if it's needed better documentation or updates for a manual, and to choose the best moderators for the forum, sorry but you CAN'T be only a programmer. you SHOULD be someone who is able to coordinate the entire OpenKore project, and we, n00bs, are also part of that ptoject, like it or not. If you only read two sections and never do support, then you might be a good developer, but you're not a good candidate for leader of the project.

Sorry, but I don't think that's any stupid decision.
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Re: PM NOMIONATIONS: An Open Call for an OK Leader

#16 Post by darkfate »

I agree with Darki in some points, but the problem with that is that I don't think there's actually a team member who writes documentation, moderates the forum, answers questions and writes code for OpenKore.. that person just doesn't exist at the current moment.. Besides the leader just needs to get things done, it doesn't matter how, he can just delegate tasks to other team members (like answering questions, moderating the forum, writing documentation and yes even writing code).
The leader needs to have knowledge in all those things, but doesn't need to do it himself, as his task is mainly to manage things and check the quality of the other team members work.

For example, lets take a project leader of some huge commercial project.. most of them don't code at all, they just delegate and check if everything is being done right.. they split up, delegate, check the quality (if they even do that..) but the point is, most of them COULD code and studied computer science too.. they just got promoted/elected to a project leader some day..

So in my opinion a project leader has to know how to lead.. and to lead an IT project you need knowledge in every part of it in order to make decisions, but you don't necessarily execute it.
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Re: PM NOMIONATIONS: An Open Call for an OK Leader

#17 Post by Technology »

Leader = Lead developer?
The leader of the openkore project would be the lead developer right?
The lead developer must be the best developer, he is there not only to lead other devs but also to guide/help them,
while also willing to listen to their proposals and idea's.
In order to guide/help the other devs he needs great(er) insight in the code.
Its like darkfate says: he does not need to neccesarily code himself, but he needs to be able to judge if something is coded right or not.
So in my opinion the lead developer should focus mainly on the code of kore and the other devs
but not so much on the community and moderators.
What do developers do? They code.

Representative Voting?
I for one believe that the votes should representative.
Some people are more involved in the project or in certain area's of the project (developing, moderating, documenting).
Is there any doubt that these people's votes need to be weighted more than others?
(yes, this is representative democracy)

Suggestion
A company has different managers for different sections of the company. (IT, PR, ...)
Now my suggestion is that we vote for a lead developer & community leader & documentation leader.
Those people will then communicate with eachother about important matters in order to glue the whole thing together.

Lead developer = voted by developers
Community leader = voted by moderators/community
...
Does that make sense?

Let this not be a battle of charm and popularity, but of competence.
One ST0 to rule them all? One PE viewer to find them!
One ST_kRO to bring them all and in the darkness bind them...

Mount Doom awaits us, fellowship of OpenKore!

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Re: PM NOMIONATIONS: An Open Call for an OK Leader

#18 Post by kLabMouse »

Technology wrote: Suggestion
A company has different managers for different sections of the company.
Now my suggestion is that we vote for a lead developer & community leader & documentation leader.
Those people will then communicate with eachother about important matters in order to glue the whole thing together.

Lead developer = voted by developers
Community leader = voted by moderators/community
...
Does that make sense?

Let this not be a battle of charm and popularity, but of competence.
Totally agree. Anyway, we have thous Leaders even now (except for Dev team leader).
But, there is no person that coordinates tasks between them.

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Re: PM NOMIONATIONS: An Open Call for an OK Leader

#19 Post by h4rry84 »

darkfate wrote:but the problem with that is that I don't think there's actually a team member who writes documentation, moderates the forum, answers questions and writes code for OpenKore..
did you call meh :P

JK (well i did a bit of each of them though :p)

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Re: PM NOMIONATIONS: An Open Call for an OK Leader

#20 Post by Darki »

While I see your point, I don't really understand why is needed a "leader" for all the sections.

Example 1: "moderator leader". The only thing needed in any kind of rank would be an Administrator and that could be done probably by the leader. All you need to do is to choose global mods and section mods, to delegate your work. You'll supervise their work but you wouldn't need to be 24/7 at the forums. Apart from that I don't see the need of a "leader".

Example 2: leader developer: Why does this person need to be the best at the work to supervise the code? This is NOT an enterprise, you don't have a crowd of 60 subordinates working for you. If any developer submits a code, it should be on other developers work to at least check it and say "this works" or "this could be done easier". How many developers exist now? I don't see this difficult to put in practice.

Example 3: documentation leader: This is the part I see the most difficult. How are you going to supervise my translation to Ukranian? The only thing the leader needs for this is to know how to read, to supervise the english documentations, and I don't see this difficult. You don't need to be a writer to read a good book.

Maybe the idea of the leader developer is the strongest here, but still I don't see a real need for this, being here all devs "in theory" reasonable people that can discuss rationally for a matter.

In my oppinion we don't need more smartazz to rule the project, we need ORGANIZATION. So, well, maybe with "sub-leaders" we would have it more organized, but things could work without them if this is a REAL intend to improve the project. We don't need a person who knows EVERYTHING, we just need a person that is able to rule the three "sections" of OpenKore community properly and coordinate them. I don't need to know how to code in perl to tell a developer "move your ass and work" (for example). This is the real duty the leader should accomplish: "Move your ass and work". To know if a code is well done, you can ask a dev. To fix a manual you can ask a documentation writter. To mod the forums you already chose the mods. If you know how to do those jobs by yourself, of course it's perfect, but it's not 100% needed.
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