Hi everyone,
I've been pondering the ethics of botting for some time now, and I'd be interested in hearing everyone's take on the issue. It's my opinion that the stigma attached to bots could be severely reduced if bots (and botters) behaved more amicably.
The ethical use of bots would restrict a bot's action to either net gain or zero gain with respect to other players. A bot should therefore be a boon less than a hindrance to other players. The reverse might arise from several phenomenon, not least economy modification, unfair competitive advantage, mob starvation and social deprivation. Though it's obvious that bots cannot be expected to behave as intelligently as humans, it is possible to make them more agreeable players.
Economy modification and unfair competitive advantage are some of the more subtle and difficult downsides to avoid, as the primary goal of most botters is indeed to glean such an advantage (or wealth) without the need to play for it. However, Being indirect downsides as they are, they are the least likely to be perceived by other players.
The other problems bots might engender could be avoided... Namely, mob starvation could be avoided by running checks with respect to the number of players and mobs on a map. A high player to mob ratio would indicate that there are already too many bots and players on the map for the number of mobs. Therefore, to avoid overcrowding the map (frustrating players and possibly reducing returns on exp and drops for the bot), bots should vacate the map (and find a different lockMap, for instance) or log off.
Social deprivation could also be avoided, though this issue is much harder. The easiest solution is to monitor chat logs as they arrive and to manually respond to them. A bot could also be made to emote a greeting when encountering a player, thereby inviting conversation. A bot could also be patched into IRC, MSN, or a multitude of other chat protocols.
On the other side of the problem, bots could also be made to be more helpful in general to other players. Priest, vendor, Linker, etc... bots can all be programmed to help the player community and make up for the drain they pose on the system.
It's my theory that not only would ethical botting improve the game for players, but it would also reduce the chances of getting caught botting.
Discuss...
Bot Ethics
Moderator: Moderators
Re: Bot Ethics
Isn't it just like ethical hacking?
Re: Bot Ethics
How do you mean?
Please elaborate!
Please elaborate!
Re: Bot Ethics
Is this some kind of homework or something?
Got your topic trashed by a mod?
Trashing topics is one click, and moving a topic to its proper forum is a lot harder. You expend the least effort in deciding where to post, mods expend the least effort by trashing.
Have a nice day.
Trashing topics is one click, and moving a topic to its proper forum is a lot harder. You expend the least effort in deciding where to post, mods expend the least effort by trashing.
Have a nice day.
Re: Bot Ethics
Maps get crowded because people are going to the same map for the same reason. Some possible reasons are 1) the monsters have good drops, 2) the monsters give good exp, 3) there aren't too many aggros.
There isn't really any incentive to go to another map. For example, if I want a Slotted Muffler I am going to the Sohee map.
Yes there are other ways to get a Slotted Muffler, but even if I could kill those other monsters, Sohees are the easiest way. This is an inherent game flaw that you can't really get around even if you change the way you bot. The fact of the matter is, specific monsters drop a specific item that I want, and Gravity designed the game to have a lot of those monsters in the same place.
Obviously you will want to hunt the easiest monster, with a high spawn rate, in the safest location. So everybody else will do the same when they want the same item as you. And if you're playing at the same time, the map will then become crowded and you must compete for mobs. Bots increase the burden because you can have more than one character at a time and run them all day long (making it near impossible to compete if you're manually playing). It is hard to be fair and "ethical" when doing so only hurts yourself. If you send your Knight to manually hunt Sohees, and I send my 3 Hunter bots to Sohees, odds are I am going to get a Slotted Muffler before you. Why should I send away my Hunters when I want a Slotted Muffler too? If I leave just 1 Hunter there, yes I give the Knight a chance, but at the same time, I cut my chances by 2/3. Why should I hurt myself a lot just to help out a stranger a little bit? This doesn't make any sense at all.
On the flip side of the coin: if a greedy person were to send 50 Hunter bots to Sohees, it would be hard for the Knight to even claim a single mob. Even if that greedy person tried to be ethical and promised to himself, "I will make the bots leave as soon as I get a Slotted Muffler", it still wouldn't be fair for the people there during that time. Perhaps the players there have work/social/life responsibilities and it is the ONLY time for them to play. They're pretty much out of luck, the only thing they could do is report the bots and hope a GM will do something about it. Bots get banned, but not as frequently as they should be. For every bot that gets banned, AT LEAST one more bot will come take its place, sometimes more than one.
As for your mob starvation checks... This would be really hard to accurately measure. The way the game is designed, you cannot tell how many mobs and players in total are on the map. The client receives information about other players and monsters based on a radius of what is NEAR you. If you go to the Goats map and don't see any Goats, does that automatically mean there are 100 bots that can 1Shot them tele-searching, and you should go somewhere else because it's too crowded? No. Perhaps there is 1 Wizard who is mobbing the entire map, and you'd have every right to try (and probably a better chance) to compete with him.
What I'm trying to say is that no matter if you're playing through the client or botting, you will mostly only get information about things within a radius around you. Since you don't really have a way to tell what is going on outside of that radius, you can never get an accurate measure of who's actually trying to hunt on the map. If 100 people pass within your radius, does that automatically mean they're gonna stay on the map? Perhaps they're just passing by on their way to another map.
As for your point on supportive bots, sadly they are banned more frequently than normal bots simply because they stand out more. You are more likely to remember a Priest that camped a respawn point and buffed and healed you on respawn, than a Rogue who is hunting somewhere. Imagine reporting a Rogue bot with a random letter name in Izlude Dungeon... Okay, which one??? There is like 1000 there. Which is easier to report? Supportive bots are not common, stand out, easy to spot, and get banned easier. Why would someone waste their time setting up a supportive bot that is gonna get banned quick? Imagine spending your time/effort/zeny making a lv75 FS Priest that's set up to heal and buff the general public... Guess what? The general public will thank you by reporting you and getting you banned.
People bot for a few different reasons. But in the end, it is against the Terms of Service to bot, so no matter how ethical you try to be, you've already broken the rules.
TL;DR: There is no Bot Ethics.
There isn't really any incentive to go to another map. For example, if I want a Slotted Muffler I am going to the Sohee map.
Yes there are other ways to get a Slotted Muffler, but even if I could kill those other monsters, Sohees are the easiest way. This is an inherent game flaw that you can't really get around even if you change the way you bot. The fact of the matter is, specific monsters drop a specific item that I want, and Gravity designed the game to have a lot of those monsters in the same place.
Obviously you will want to hunt the easiest monster, with a high spawn rate, in the safest location. So everybody else will do the same when they want the same item as you. And if you're playing at the same time, the map will then become crowded and you must compete for mobs. Bots increase the burden because you can have more than one character at a time and run them all day long (making it near impossible to compete if you're manually playing). It is hard to be fair and "ethical" when doing so only hurts yourself. If you send your Knight to manually hunt Sohees, and I send my 3 Hunter bots to Sohees, odds are I am going to get a Slotted Muffler before you. Why should I send away my Hunters when I want a Slotted Muffler too? If I leave just 1 Hunter there, yes I give the Knight a chance, but at the same time, I cut my chances by 2/3. Why should I hurt myself a lot just to help out a stranger a little bit? This doesn't make any sense at all.
On the flip side of the coin: if a greedy person were to send 50 Hunter bots to Sohees, it would be hard for the Knight to even claim a single mob. Even if that greedy person tried to be ethical and promised to himself, "I will make the bots leave as soon as I get a Slotted Muffler", it still wouldn't be fair for the people there during that time. Perhaps the players there have work/social/life responsibilities and it is the ONLY time for them to play. They're pretty much out of luck, the only thing they could do is report the bots and hope a GM will do something about it. Bots get banned, but not as frequently as they should be. For every bot that gets banned, AT LEAST one more bot will come take its place, sometimes more than one.
As for your mob starvation checks... This would be really hard to accurately measure. The way the game is designed, you cannot tell how many mobs and players in total are on the map. The client receives information about other players and monsters based on a radius of what is NEAR you. If you go to the Goats map and don't see any Goats, does that automatically mean there are 100 bots that can 1Shot them tele-searching, and you should go somewhere else because it's too crowded? No. Perhaps there is 1 Wizard who is mobbing the entire map, and you'd have every right to try (and probably a better chance) to compete with him.
What I'm trying to say is that no matter if you're playing through the client or botting, you will mostly only get information about things within a radius around you. Since you don't really have a way to tell what is going on outside of that radius, you can never get an accurate measure of who's actually trying to hunt on the map. If 100 people pass within your radius, does that automatically mean they're gonna stay on the map? Perhaps they're just passing by on their way to another map.
As for your point on supportive bots, sadly they are banned more frequently than normal bots simply because they stand out more. You are more likely to remember a Priest that camped a respawn point and buffed and healed you on respawn, than a Rogue who is hunting somewhere. Imagine reporting a Rogue bot with a random letter name in Izlude Dungeon... Okay, which one??? There is like 1000 there. Which is easier to report? Supportive bots are not common, stand out, easy to spot, and get banned easier. Why would someone waste their time setting up a supportive bot that is gonna get banned quick? Imagine spending your time/effort/zeny making a lv75 FS Priest that's set up to heal and buff the general public... Guess what? The general public will thank you by reporting you and getting you banned.
People bot for a few different reasons. But in the end, it is against the Terms of Service to bot, so no matter how ethical you try to be, you've already broken the rules.
TL;DR: There is no Bot Ethics.
-
Darki
- Been there done that!
- Posts: 143
- Joined: 25 Oct 2008, 08:14
- Noob?: No
- Location: Spain, Madrid
- Contact:
Re: Bot Ethics
Since I do bot, I guess I'm not too worried by bot ethics, but anyways, there are some "rules" I'd follow to myself when I bot, not only because it feels for me "right", but because that's how I like to do.
For example, my "favorite" way of botting is to use a slave. That's the reason I'm always fooling arounf the Macro section, to develop different fuctions to enhance my slave priest to its maximun. I don't think this really hurts the game in any ways, because anybody can just make an slave account and have the priest near you healing/buffing you by switching clients, what I do is onnly to make it more comfortable.
I don't like to leave my bots somewhere levelling/hunting rarz, and it's not for any ethics or morals (lol): First, I don't like to leave my computer on when I'm not around or sleeping, because I can't sleep with it. Second, I don't want to be caught, and I'd prefer to watch out the bot working, and third, I don't trust my botting skills enough to think I could bot for a long time without being caught.
I don't really mind people botting, of course, since I aso do, but I HATE n00b botters. When you're used to, basically you're able to tell when a player is a bot just by watching it for 10 secs, and sometimes is just a *facepalm*. My goal is basically to bot as perfect as possible, to make my bot to be as human-like as possible. That's why I think my way of botting wouldn't hurt the game. I don't want an army of bots that were able to get me 50 mills per hour and a lot of rarz, but a single bot that does all I want perfecty enough. I don't bot because I wanna go the "easy mode", I bot because for me, botting, weitting macros and watch my bot to do the thingsI've programmed before, is enjoyable.
For example, my "favorite" way of botting is to use a slave. That's the reason I'm always fooling arounf the Macro section, to develop different fuctions to enhance my slave priest to its maximun. I don't think this really hurts the game in any ways, because anybody can just make an slave account and have the priest near you healing/buffing you by switching clients, what I do is onnly to make it more comfortable.
I don't like to leave my bots somewhere levelling/hunting rarz, and it's not for any ethics or morals (lol): First, I don't like to leave my computer on when I'm not around or sleeping, because I can't sleep with it. Second, I don't want to be caught, and I'd prefer to watch out the bot working, and third, I don't trust my botting skills enough to think I could bot for a long time without being caught.
I don't really mind people botting, of course, since I aso do, but I HATE n00b botters. When you're used to, basically you're able to tell when a player is a bot just by watching it for 10 secs, and sometimes is just a *facepalm*. My goal is basically to bot as perfect as possible, to make my bot to be as human-like as possible. That's why I think my way of botting wouldn't hurt the game. I don't want an army of bots that were able to get me 50 mills per hour and a lot of rarz, but a single bot that does all I want perfecty enough. I don't bot because I wanna go the "easy mode", I bot because for me, botting, weitting macros and watch my bot to do the thingsI've programmed before, is enjoyable.
Re: Bot Ethics
Kali, no, hehe this isn't a homework assignment, just curiosity about how the people on this forum (likely the more insightful and surely the most knowledgeable about OK) take note of their actions.
Darki, jg, Thanks for your insightful replies.
jg, you've perfectly summed up what I was getting at with mob starvation and giving other (manual) players a chance to compete.
I counter, though, that bots (and the botters controlling them) should be charged with giving players the priority on maps. Though it isn't as convenient or easy to do, i'm positive several checks could be made (with respect to the frequency of players spotted on a map vs the frequency of monsters over one hour's time, for instance) to reduce overcrowding. Sadly, I doubt giving other players a chance is on many botter's minds...
I also appreciate your point about Gravity's game design. The grind intensive game that rewards repetitive and simple behaviors really favors botters over players.
I'm unsure about the priests likelyhood of getting caught... It would be an interesting thought experiment to design such a helpful support bot to be as human-like as possible and see how long it can last without getting reported...
Darki, I admire your way of doing things, since I, too, think the same way.
Ideally, we could develop bots that have a small or positive impact on the play experience of other players. Realistically, playing with or supervising a bot is a good way of achieving this.
Darki, jg, Thanks for your insightful replies.
jg, you've perfectly summed up what I was getting at with mob starvation and giving other (manual) players a chance to compete.
I counter, though, that bots (and the botters controlling them) should be charged with giving players the priority on maps. Though it isn't as convenient or easy to do, i'm positive several checks could be made (with respect to the frequency of players spotted on a map vs the frequency of monsters over one hour's time, for instance) to reduce overcrowding. Sadly, I doubt giving other players a chance is on many botter's minds...
I also appreciate your point about Gravity's game design. The grind intensive game that rewards repetitive and simple behaviors really favors botters over players.
I'm unsure about the priests likelyhood of getting caught... It would be an interesting thought experiment to design such a helpful support bot to be as human-like as possible and see how long it can last without getting reported...
Darki, I admire your way of doing things, since I, too, think the same way.
Ideally, we could develop bots that have a small or positive impact on the play experience of other players. Realistically, playing with or supervising a bot is a good way of achieving this.
-
Darki
- Been there done that!
- Posts: 143
- Joined: 25 Oct 2008, 08:14
- Noob?: No
- Location: Spain, Madrid
- Contact:
Re: Bot Ethics
I had many arguments in my RO fansite with other friends because the fact of "I bot", regardless of what I do.
First of all, botting is against the rules. Ok? There are many people who like to argue against this, but in most servers this is a fact. Well, taking that in mind, it's funny how people gets so fired when you say you bot. I mean, crossing a road in red is against the LAW, not stupid private rules, but, you see many people doing. Of course, if you're a cop you should punish this act (by the way, at least where I live this isn't even punished in most cases). If you're a game master and you put up a server, is natural that you don't let botting in any cases, but, is botting really that bad? The answer isn't "yes" or "no", the answer is "it deppends on the situation". Of course, taking in mind that it's already "bad" as it goes against the rules.
If you make up an army of 150 bots and use them regardless of the server situation, that's WRONG, because the idea of botting is, in the end, same than playing: having fun. If you make any movement that makes a server to die because of overflow of accounts or destroy it's economy because you're farming 24/7. Same than if you're one of the usual noobish botters that keep the server staff looking for botters.
If you use a bot for example, to control a slave account... Why is that bad? In good servers you can make them in the "normal" way, double-clienting and alt-tabbing. Botting for this only save you the alt-tabbing part and some computer resources. As I've said 2 times already, of course botting is against the rules, but doing this doesn't harm anybody. If you make up a GOOD bot, with good configurations and a really worked out behaviour, it will act like a normal person. Everybody is able to play 8 hours in a row almost non-stop (I bet many of us have done this many times on our early RO gameplay). The bad thing comes when you make a nobbish bot sho does KS, dies 30 times facing the same monster and answers "no I'm not a bot" everytime somebody PM's something to it.
But, imagine you create a wandering buffbot with a Priest that goes around the town buffing, healing and helping people? Saving the rules thing, wouldn't that be even good?
In the other hand, most of RO players do play in private servers. Private servers aren't that bright in terms of going against the rules, as for example, Aegis-based servers are basically illegal, and eAthena uses copyrighted stuff to run. Why would I respect the rules of a server which goes against the law?
Saying this, of course, I play for fun, and that implies not to be a motherfucker who destroys servers or harm the community. That's why I wouldn't exploit bugs or jack accounts, and I try to play always by myself, even when botting, to keep an eye on my bot.
And, as I said before, I don't bot only because I want go easy on RO, I also bot because the idea of programming OK seems interesting for me, and I find enjoyment not only on game, but in the bot itself.
First of all, botting is against the rules. Ok? There are many people who like to argue against this, but in most servers this is a fact. Well, taking that in mind, it's funny how people gets so fired when you say you bot. I mean, crossing a road in red is against the LAW, not stupid private rules, but, you see many people doing. Of course, if you're a cop you should punish this act (by the way, at least where I live this isn't even punished in most cases). If you're a game master and you put up a server, is natural that you don't let botting in any cases, but, is botting really that bad? The answer isn't "yes" or "no", the answer is "it deppends on the situation". Of course, taking in mind that it's already "bad" as it goes against the rules.
If you make up an army of 150 bots and use them regardless of the server situation, that's WRONG, because the idea of botting is, in the end, same than playing: having fun. If you make any movement that makes a server to die because of overflow of accounts or destroy it's economy because you're farming 24/7. Same than if you're one of the usual noobish botters that keep the server staff looking for botters.
If you use a bot for example, to control a slave account... Why is that bad? In good servers you can make them in the "normal" way, double-clienting and alt-tabbing. Botting for this only save you the alt-tabbing part and some computer resources. As I've said 2 times already, of course botting is against the rules, but doing this doesn't harm anybody. If you make up a GOOD bot, with good configurations and a really worked out behaviour, it will act like a normal person. Everybody is able to play 8 hours in a row almost non-stop (I bet many of us have done this many times on our early RO gameplay). The bad thing comes when you make a nobbish bot sho does KS, dies 30 times facing the same monster and answers "no I'm not a bot" everytime somebody PM's something to it.
But, imagine you create a wandering buffbot with a Priest that goes around the town buffing, healing and helping people? Saving the rules thing, wouldn't that be even good?
In the other hand, most of RO players do play in private servers. Private servers aren't that bright in terms of going against the rules, as for example, Aegis-based servers are basically illegal, and eAthena uses copyrighted stuff to run. Why would I respect the rules of a server which goes against the law?
Saying this, of course, I play for fun, and that implies not to be a motherfucker who destroys servers or harm the community. That's why I wouldn't exploit bugs or jack accounts, and I try to play always by myself, even when botting, to keep an eye on my bot.
And, as I said before, I don't bot only because I want go easy on RO, I also bot because the idea of programming OK seems interesting for me, and I find enjoyment not only on game, but in the bot itself.
Re: Bot Ethics
YOU Da MAN!Darki wrote:Since I do bot, I guess I'm not too worried by bot ethics, but anyways, there are some "rules" I'd follow to myself when I bot, not only because it feels for me "right", but because that's how I like to do.
For example, my "favorite" way of botting is to use a slave. That's the reason I'm always fooling arounf the Macro section, to develop different fuctions to enhance my slave priest to its maximun. I don't think this really hurts the game in any ways, because anybody can just make an slave account and have the priest near you healing/buffing you by switching clients, what I do is onnly to make it more comfortable.
I don't like to leave my bots somewhere levelling/hunting rarz, and it's not for any ethics or morals (lol): First, I don't like to leave my computer on when I'm not around or sleeping, because I can't sleep with it. Second, I don't want to be caught, and I'd prefer to watch out the bot working, and third, I don't trust my botting skills enough to think I could bot for a long time without being caught.
I don't really mind people botting, of course, since I aso do, but I HATE n00b botters. When you're used to, basically you're able to tell when a player is a bot just by watching it for 10 secs, and sometimes is just a *facepalm*. My goal is basically to bot as perfect as possible, to make my bot to be as human-like as possible. That's why I think my way of botting wouldn't hurt the game. I don't want an army of bots that were able to get me 50 mills per hour and a lot of rarz, but a single bot that does all I want perfecty enough. I don't bot because I wanna go the "easy mode", I bot because for me, botting, weitting macros and watch my bot to do the thingsI've programmed before, is enjoyable.
