The User Interest Black Hole

Discussion about everything RO and OpenKore related. This place is NOT for ANY kind of support questions.

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catcity
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The User Interest Black Hole

#1 Post by catcity »

I was talking about this with harvest on IRC and I think it would make an interesting discussion point. I'm not asking for anything, or really proposing any solutions but at least talking out something that I think is a bit of an anomaly in Openkore. Off the top of my head I'll call it the User Interest Black Hole. I'm talking about the sudden steep learning curve between being an Openkore user and being an Openkore contributor.

For a basic user; someone who is content to download openkore_ready.zip or, maybe even go so far as to check it out of SVN; the documentation is rich and accessible and there is plenty of support for it (disregarding some people who take offense at people asking support questions). On the wiki, almost each and every element of the config files is documented and from a front-end perspective it is the only resource you need to get a bot up and running and keep it that way. This is the basic functionality of Openkore. It works great.

This is for a User. This is from the perspective of someone who is having a service provided to them.

Then comes the moment where there is something that a user wants to accomplish that is not covered by the core functionality of Openkore. The user is presented with a number of options:

Find a macro that does what you want.
Make a macro that does what you want.
Find a plugin that does what you want.
Make a plugin that does what you want.
Fix the core functionality of Openkore itself.


This is where the difference between being a user and a contributor is determined. If a macro or a plugin already exists that performs the function you want to accomplish then the user can carry on their merry way and be happy about life and everything will be dandy. If however; the macro or plugin does not exist (as it probably doesn't (Going into the issue of 'sharing' on Openkore is a whole 'nother topic)) then the list becomes smaller:

Make a macro that does what you want.
Make a plugin that does what you want.
Fix the core functionality of Openkore itself.


Let's take a quick look at this from a user perspective:

A user probably doesn't know perl. For a user, the concept of cracking open the program and prodding around at the insides in an attempt to add functionality to the program is not even something that crosses the mind. It's out of the question. Fix the core functionality of Openkore itself is out before it was even in. The idea of making a plugin is not considered because it is not supported by the Openkore community. Look at the majority of "Help: How do I do X?" threads in the forum history (I've checked) and the default response answer to many questions is just "Make a Macro."

This makes sense from a user perspective too. Is there documentation that will explain to a user how to make a macro? Yes. Does it explain it in absolute basic terms that a user could understand? Yes. Does it talk through every possible element to produce a series of building blocks and examples that can be combined together, so no matter what you want to achieve you can probably figure it out by reading said documentation? ... Yes!

In the case of plugins: Is there documentation that will explain to a user how to make a plugin? Yes. Does it explain it in absolute basic terms that a user could understand? No. In fact it seems to be written for someone who already understands perl, rather than a user who might be looking at using this as a basis to start learning perl in order to develop plugins (I speak from experience. As someone who read that page knowing no programming but intending to learn; I found it hard to follow, confusing, incomplete and it almost put me off the idea of wanting to write plugins). Does it talk through every possible element to produce a series of building blocks and examples that can be combined together, so no matter what you want to achieve you can probably figure it out by reading said documentation? Well... No again. But this time there's no real fault. Plugins are perl and perl is a programming language. It is huge and complex and documented elsewhere anyway. Nobody expects this as an answer but I'll come back to it as a point.

This is where the User Interest Black Hole sits. It is the point between being a user and a contributor, nestled right between the choices of Make a Macro and Make a Plugin. The documentation drops off entirely and disappears, replaced by the roadblock of requiring knowledge of a programming language. All the support disappears and if a user wants to continue; develop and become a contributor, then they better go the hell away and learn a programming language and figure it out on their own.

Now going back to my previous point about learning perl. That's fine. There are plenty of great beginner resources out there for a user to go away and start trying to learn perl. Like this, and this. A user, with a bit of time and willingness could go away and learn, then come back with the intention of a) writing a plugin or b) fixing a core functionality.

Then comes a bigger problem:

Openkore on the inside is huge and unruly and confusing to a beginner. Of course it would be. It's a complex program that does a lot of things. So for a user who wants to start writing a plugin, there is no direction for where to start. There IS documentation, in src/doc/srcdoc, which is lean and bare and stripped from the comments of the source code. If you're going to start somewhere it's as good a place as any if you know it is there and you can find it (which I imagine many people don't know it exists). Then when you do get through the docs, it is vague and there are no descriptions. These Openkore functions should be the building blocks for creating plugins, but there is no real description of how they can be applied.

There are topics stuck to the top of this forum that desperately ask users to leech less and contribute more; that preach about the declining state of the Openkore community and I think one of the pinpoints of that problem is the steepness of difficulty between being a user and a contributor.

As I said at the beginning, I'm not asking for anything and I'm not proposing any solutions. I just thought this might be an interesting discussion topic for people. Users and developers alike. So to finish off quite a long topic; here are a couple of questions:

Users, do you feel like you want to contribute more to Openkore development but feel that you aren't able to because of this steep learning curve, and what do you think would make it easier to get over that hump? (i.e Source code documentation; Simpler, better commented plugins.)

Developers and those who have an understanding of Openkore's source code, would you be willing to expand on the documentation that is presented in src/doc/srcdoc with examples of how these functions can be applied, if you felt it would help more people become contributors to Openkore?

Finally, I would like to quote something that harvest said on IRC:
[17:34] <harvest> I don't think such a featurefull and unmanaged project can naturally be navigatable and easy for absolute beginners
That is true and fair enough. I guess what I am saying is that there is a sudden wall to climb in the natural progression of user -> contributor.

Download OK -> Configure OK -> Run OK -> Use a Macro -> Make a Macro -> Black Hole -> Plugins -> Development

What are your thoughts?
There's two types of people in this world, kid: Those who can, and those who can't; and cats...

[Plugin] Automatic Map Changer
iMikeLance
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Re: The User Interest Black Hole

#2 Post by iMikeLance »

This is my point of view (what I learned from being openkore.com.br administrator):

1. It was an open community with quick and good support from our contributors and staff.

2. We had a lot of users that always requested a lot of fixes like we were obligated to.

3. Things were getting worse with bRO: Gravity/LevelUpGames was always releasing new patches that changed everything every week and users kept complaining about "how we were slow with fixing it", a lot of zeny sellers using OpenKore to spam players with PMs and farmers were out of control.

4. I always provided support and was always teaching users how to do these "advanced" things. Only two users were interested and one of them is a contributor now: KeplerBR and Unknown6996(inactive).

5. LevelUpGames made another update and we were unable to fix it. Users kept disrespecting and demanding the fix for it. We decided that we wouldn't just give it this time. We wanted to force them to learn and fix it by themselves.

6. Some just wanted to make it work, others were zeny sellers and some were top players that needed Openkore for they own needs. Seeing this, some users gathered together (as you can see here: http://forums.openkore.com/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=13305) and with the help of kLabMouse and x86-64 they were able to make a fix. They have a big merit for this.

6.5. Despite criticizing us for not releasing the tool needed to fix Openkore in bRO, they also didn't when they finished it.

7. Most of them probably hate us for not giving the fix and for making Openkore Brazil an unofficial closed community, but the thing is: Now the Openkore Project can count with 5x or 6x more developers from Brazil than before we did what we did.

8. Openkore Brazil is now a closed community. Users must pay around 5$ in order to have full access. Inside our VIP area users give more value to what is done and developed and together we have been developing things that I never seen before from brazilian contributors (like patches, webMonitor plugin).

9. My conclusion is: you want users to learn something? Force them to.
catcity
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Re: The User Interest Black Hole

#3 Post by catcity »

Great response and a lot of really good points. If you don't mind me addressing some of them.
iMikeLance wrote:2. We had a lot of users that always requested a lot of fixes like we were obligated to.
Big problem in the first instance. It's a mentality issue that affects the quality of the community in a negative way because it means the developers don't want to spend what little free time they have developing for people who they consider to be leeches, and the users just get more entitled and more likely to climb up on a soap box and start ranting about how terrible everything is. It's a downward spiral.
iMikeLance wrote:3. Things were getting worse with bRO: Gravity/LevelUpGames was always releasing new patches that changed everything every week and users kept complaining about "how we were slow with fixing it", a lot of zeny sellers using OpenKore to spam players with PMs and farmers were out of control.
This is something I've thought a lot about from what I've seen on iRo. The other day I saw a conga line of easily 30 - 40 Rogues, all auto-following each other through Payon dungeon; something which is clearly having a severely negative impact on the game itself. I think botting is awesome... for me; but I definitely don't agree with it when it has a negative impact on other players. The fact that zeny sellers and farmers have embraced Openkore as a tool is negative for the game, and for us, I feel.

But what's the solution to that? In your eyes; a closed community?
iMikeLance wrote:6. Some just wanted to make it work, others were zeny sellers and some were top players that needed Openkore for they own needs. Seeing this, some users gathered together (as you can see here: http://forums.openkore.com/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=13305) and with the help of kLabMouse and x86-64 they were able to make a fix. They have a big merit for this.

6.5. Despite criticizing us for not releasing the tool needed to fix Openkore in bRO, they also didn't when they finished it.
What was their reasoning for that? Selfishness? Felt like they would lose their advantage if they gave it out to others? Wanted to capitalize on the fact that they were one of the few who could get it working?

For me, I'm not really interested in playing RO anymore (at least not right now), so I have no motivation to bot high level characters at the moment. I am however fascinated by Openkore and would love to see how far it can go. I guess that gives me different motivations because I don't really feel like I have an 'advantage' that I need to preserve by not sharing. The only thing that makes me hesitate from sharing things is the fact that I don't want to contribute tools for zeny sellers/farmers.
iMikeLance wrote:8. Openkore Brazil is now a closed community. Users must pay around 5$ in order to have full access. Inside our VIP area users give more value to what is done and developed and together we have been developing things that I never seen before from brazilian contributors (like patches, webMonitor plugin).
This is really curious. Openkore pay to play. Do you think this really promotes a better community, or shuts out a number of people that would be put off by that or that might see it as an elitist attitude? I asked earlier if you thought that a closed community was a good solution to abundant zeny seller usage of Openkore, but with a $5 gate-fee, I don't see how it could be. If anybody could benefit from paying $5 then it would be zeny sellers/farmers.

If you are going to close off the community, would it not be better to to say that the price of admission was interest and contribution, rather than financial. If a user demonstrated that they were willing to learn and was trying to contribute things like patches/plugins etc, then would that not be a better person to allow into your closed circle than someone that shills out $5 for the privilege?
iMikeLance wrote:9. My conclusion is: you want users to learn something? Force them to.
And what about the people that are interested in the first place? That don't require being forced but are put off by cynicism?
There's two types of people in this world, kid: Those who can, and those who can't; and cats...

[Plugin] Automatic Map Changer
EternalHarvest
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Re: The User Interest Black Hole

#4 Post by EternalHarvest »

The leeches always were big part of openkore community, even VCL wrote about that. If you're making closed community just because of that, it only makes general situation worse, trading that for benefits for you right now. I've seen some examples of not even closed, but just separated openkore communities - they all had useful documentation, patches, plugins, features that we don't have now. Even the copy of our old forums had such things I still have bookmarked. This situation inevitably divides not very big contributor community.
iMikeLance
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Re: The User Interest Black Hole

#5 Post by iMikeLance »

EternalHarvest wrote:The leeches always were big part of openkore community, even VCL wrote about that. If you're making closed community just because of that, it only makes general situation worse, trading that for benefits for you right now. I've seen some examples of not even closed, but just separated openkore communities - they all had useful documentation, patches, plugins, features that we don't have now. Even the copy of our old forums had such things I still have bookmarked. This situation inevitably divides not very big contributor community.
In this case I always keep some backups of EVERYTHING.
Patches and plugins are still being commited, the only difference for VIPs is that they get them 1 or 2 weeks before they are released to public and by doing that every code is tested by them before being submitted to Openkore SVN.
The old Openkore Brazil (the one managed by --Roger--) had this issue - they had a lot of documentation, macros and codes that were VERY useful - still they closed their forums and then all their material was gone. I'm being careful about that.
We have a nice wiki - not just translated from the original but adapted to bRO's needs - and if we can add support to translations with the official I can adapt most of our articles.
VIP users are not paying for software or codes - they are paying for support. Simple as that. You can find almost anything thats inside Openkore Brazil outside of it - other forums and sites (you can find here !). The difference is that our VIPs users get a really good support, for 99% of their questions we can offer a solution. And by asking a symbolic payment ($5 for each user is not that much when you have to divide it...) we have better control - users think more before posting anything by reading our wiki and other topics and the community is almost perfectly managed.

I would like to participate more in this discussion but I don't have time now. And I really hope that this won't be just a discussion - I hope that some solutions to come out of this.
5e13ct
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Re: The User Interest Black Hole

#6 Post by 5e13ct »

I see some things when they are posted here on this forum are a bit distorted, the same iMike said the BRO forum only support the use of OK, OK, why not offer the SVN updates weekly changes in communication?

I personally see no advantage in this forum post information to the servers BRO because I post any correction will be sold to users BRO.
EternalHarvest
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Re: The User Interest Black Hole

#7 Post by EternalHarvest »

If you don't want to contribute there, it's up to you, just respect openkore's licensing. Respect rights of others to do the same as well. That won't be great for the project, but it's not like anybody can stop you.

First post was more about those who want to contribute (or just to start doing their own modifications), and issues on that way, wasn't it? Discuss bRO in another topic, it's pointless to have the same discussion repeated in every possible topic.
5e13ct
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Re: The User Interest Black Hole

#8 Post by 5e13ct »

EternalHarvest wrote:If you don't want to contribute there, it's up to you, just respect openkore's licensing. Respect rights of others to do the same as well.

First post was more about those who want to contribute (or just to start doing their own modifications), and issues on that way, wasn't it? Discuss bRO in another topic.
I see that soon will disappear OK, because there is no contribution, few today understand the mechanics of sink OK, I speak for the BRO issues because that is where I am now, is the way I am.

I have some acquaintances who are paying for the community BRO already asked them if they teach weekly to make corrections, or if they only pay for the correction of the path there weekly, the answer is because of the path.

As said earlier, how we can help in information OK, updates, macros, plugins, mechanically extracted and whether it will be sold, and the authors of the information does not even have his signature?

I agree with you about the issues of BRO are on another topic, I would greatly help in the community on issues of OK, but the community itself Openkore embraces people who sell the code made ​​by employees, how do you think someone who knows more about OK will begin to help here, and your information will be sold?
iMikeLance
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Re: The User Interest Black Hole

#9 Post by iMikeLance »

Currently I'm planning to write some technical stuff and some guides and examples about writing plugins (using hooks, openkore's global variables) and (very) basic perl in brazilian wiki. I can translate everything to the international wiki if someone can give me access to it. Also i'll write some guides about extracting recvpackets manually.

EDIT: Some contributors don't feel so comfortable about writing articles in English. I'll translated every useful guide in brazilian wiki to english. However this will be slow as I'm having some problems due to RSI.
EternalHarvest
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Re: The User Interest Black Hole

#10 Post by EternalHarvest »

All my contributions I intend to share are in source control, entitled to my SF account and available for everyone. If one prefers to buy a copy from any other source, I can't change anything and it's not really relevant to me unless licensing terms are violated. If I wanted to benefit in a such way from this work, I would just sell things in the first place without openly contributing. All my contributions, regardless of their distribution path, are still under my copyright.

Is that a problem for you, that your viral-freedom-licensed code and documentation, which is freely available to use, modify and share for anyone who wants it and with which you can just take and start your own fork if you don't like ours, is also being sold? What if it was sold by completely unrelated people (since it's freely available to everyone), it would be the same problem for you? What about if somebody not sells, but just uses that code for his own benefit, probably like every user of openkore does?

Openkore's license doesn't prohibit "selling", but it gives you many important freedoms. If you think that's not right, such a project couldn't survive with any other way. Even "about openkore" mentions similar arguments like "people will steal the source code and claim that the program is theirs!" - and that "non-stolen" software just doesn't exist anymore.